Having interned at a semi-gender inclusive church, Preston Road CoC and a totally gender-inclusive church, the Manhattan Church of Christ- I get really frustrated at home when women aren't able to serve or be apart of caring for the church publically.

We think because you stand up front, you're leading something, but the problem with that is your heart. Obviously if you speak those words, your heart when you get up front is to lead first, not to serve humbly and gently, whether it be through song-leading, prayer, scripture reading or SERVING communion.

Maybe we need to serve communion by kneeling before people as we hand it to them, in humilty that God allows us to share and partake and serve the remembrance of the greatest sacrifice in the history of the world!

I pray that the Kingdom of God gives women and girls just as much place to serve Christ's disciples and non-believers as we have given men. May we see the equality of believers when we are serving each other, that one's service isn't better than the other and that sometimes, maybe against everything we've ever known- we're not right in what we believe about women and their "role" in the church.

Let's stop talking about men's and women's roles in the church and worry about disciple's roles in the world, taking the Kingdom daily to places that the church as an organization will never be able to touch.


** THANKS FOR LETTING ME USE YOUR SITE TO VENT **

AMEN.

Call me naive but I've never seen a woman serving communion. I'm 52, I've lived in Montana, Canada, Texas, Maryland, Pennsylvania, and toured most of the lower 48 and Canada with secular bands and a capella groups. Keith, teach me some history about this.

Trouble-maker! Pot-stirrer!

A very good question. My answer... FOLKS, ALL WE'RE DOING IS PASSING TRAYS! Share the blessing of serving each other with anyone willing to serve!

If we can recognize that our Sunday assemblies are not the direct product of divine command, but the culmination of traditions borrowed from traditions borrowed from someone else's liturgy, then we ought to start learning something about what the assembly is for. It's not for the fulfillment of sacred duties, but for praising God together, and encouraging each other to praise God with our lives.

I think each congregation should decide how they do it, according to the understanding and needs of that congregation. For some, that means following old traditions, for others, that means making new ones.

I had to laugh while I remebered the comment that came from a very humerous women in the church. She was asked how she felt about women serving the communion. She quipped, "I think it is high time those men wait on us for once...don't mess this up ladies." No one knows if this is her true opinion or if she really does relish being waited on. The article just shot that memory back for me. For what it is worth...

I have been watching the topics go by the last few days and I just want to bring up how important communication is. We have to watch out for division amongst ourselves all the time. There may be new unity movements going on but it is critical that we not take our eye off the ball with the Church membership that exists as well. We don't want to lose anyone. Be patient with those people that might not be as flexible as you are. Here are a couple of ideas.

One of the things that I feel responsible for as a member of the church is to communicate with my elders. Several things can happen here. 1. They can teach a deeper truth and that produces some growth spiritually 2. They understand where you are struggling and can't agree and this will foster sensativity on that issue towards you as a member 3. You may discover things about the Church's overall direction and intent, and that might foster some decisions on the part of you as a member. Regardless, there is value in seeking the elders out and voicing your concerns to them.

Secondly, as a member, the worst thing we can do is go gossip around and try to find supporters for our point of view. Gossip is different from healthy discussion. Healthy discussion understands that even if you don't agree it took a lot for you to open your heart and share, and you are still part of the family. Gossip tends to create battle fronts. You are responsible for your worship to God, and sometimes you need to just continue to worship and be part of the family and serve in the family as God has given you the ability (Regardless of basket ball hoops or carpet color). There are somethings that you just let go on.

Last, sometimes there isn't always a choice. I have learned this in my travels. Sometimes there wasn't a Church of Christ. Sometimes the assignments are long. There is a choice to make at this point. "Am I going to miss church altogether because I don't agree with all that goes on in their worship or am I going to go and do the best I can?" Where am I at in my spiritual walk and with the understanding that I have, I made the choice to go to the Church that was available and do the best that I can with my worship. Those are just some thoughts that I would like to share and feverenlty pray that we all stay toghether.

Blessings on you all

Hey Friends,

I hope you didn't mind the "smart alec" question.

First of all, we need to be able to make fun of ourselves.
Secondly, I don't have all the answers, and seem to have a lot more questions as time marches on.

This is a difficult topic (God's role for men/women) and needs to be studied more. Andrew, how many places have you interned? It sounds like you have picked up a tremendous wealth of varied experience in Dallas, Oklahoma City, New York?

Denny, I don't see it (women serving communion) where I visit either. It's much easier for me to raise questions than provide answers, but hopefully we can admit when things seem a little out of kilter. Here's what I mean.

1. I have actually heard grown men talk about their "service to the Lord" exclusively in terms of waiting on the Lord's table - sounding as if their entire service to God consisted of passing the communion plate one time a week on Sunday mornings. I know this is extreme spiritual immaturity, but you have to admit that type of thinking is really out of kilter (I never use the term "kilter" but used it twice in this topic.)

2. We always say we want to be like the first century church, but recognizing their views on women, both in the church and in society, I'm pretty certain that women were involved in assisting with the supper.

3. In case someone missed the "east and west" meaning, I found it hilarious when someone told me "It's okay for a woman to pass the tray left or right down the pew, but not from pew to pew" (north to south); thus the smart alec question I asked. And yes, Tim, I was "stirring the pot."

If we asked women to serve communion at our congregation, I'm guessing there would be a REVOLT and terrible reaction - even if we were convinced that the first century church handled it that way. So yes, Tim, "all we are doing is passing trays" but I'm guessing it would cause ugly divisions if we tried to alter our tradition.

Aren't you thankful we don't ask the men to be the only ones to take part in the singing? It is also such a blessing to be "spoken to" in song by a talented vocalist like Mandy Wilson singing "Beautiful Lamb Of God."

Stacey, that's a funny comment (men finally serving women) and reminds us we should all be serving each other (as Jesus was the greatest servant.) I appreciate you going to your elders for leadership. Way to go! Yes, we should avoid gossip and strive for unity. Love will cover a multitude of problems. Visiting others outside our regular circle can also help us to evaluate our thinking on many topics; especially in helping us to appreciate all our blessings! (The fact is, every group has warts. Some problems are different than others, but they all have problems.) I hope everyone understands the fun/kind spirit that I ask the "food for thought" questions.

Thanks for your thought-provoking comments on this blog!

Keith,

Just 3 places, OKC - New York - Dallas. It has offered a HUGE variance of learning and has taught me to be flexible and adaptable to what God's people are doing in different places that are sometimes only a few hundred miles away, not seperated by vast amounts of water.

If you want to study more about "Women in the New Testament and Church Today" then I would highly reccommend you take some time to read Dr. Thomas Robinson's study from the Manhattan Church. He has taught at Harvard Divinity, Pepperdine, and Union Theological Seminary. His work can be found at MCX Website. You may also want to listen to the podcasts of his sermoncalled Community Without Barriers.

Wouldn't mind spending some time learning from you in Nashville Keith... anytime- just give me a call or email. =)

You pose an excellent, thought-provoking question.

My 89-year-old dad has what I consider to be a spot-on theory on this subject. He thinks God directed the position of women in worship in recognition of man's inherent nature to sit back and let women do all the work, so that as women would assume more and more responsibility the men would just keep withdrawing from that responsibility.

Look at the Presbyterian Church in America as an example. I'm told there are now more female ministers than male in that denomination.

My $.02 worth is that God in no way thinks women are inferior to men and somehow not worthy of directing worthip. It's just that He recognizes how prone we are to "let Georgia do it".

The Presbyterian Church in American (PCA) does not ordain women. Absolutely no exceptions. Maybe you're thinking of another Presbyterian denomination. Besides that, good post. Men, get to work!

I think it has something to do with Noah building the ark out of gopher wood. Wait ... that's the instrumental music thing, isn't it?

For our service the morning of Christmas Eve, our worship leaders have planned for the elders -and their wives- to stand at stations around the room and have members come up to partake of communion. Ironically, in the e-mail exchange for this service, it was also mentioned that there would be baskets for the contribution at the tables as well, so as not to put a lot of emphasis on the contribution. Well, there was a great flurry of e-mails regarding the contribution -- whether it would seem like a tip-jar, where else in the service we could do it, separate-and-apart, etc. In fact, so much that many of the people in the conversation never realized the elders' wives would be helping to serve communion. When I made a joke about contribution being more controversial than the communion thing in a real-life conversation, silence fell. Oops, no one had realized that was going to happen and some were NOT happy. I'm not sure what the outcome will be, whether it will or won't happen. On top of recent plans for a preacher exchange with our local Christian church, sadly it may be the last straw for a few.

Some people hang by a thin straw. We've had our elders / wives serve communion several times, praying with people and just blessing them in the name of Jesus. Very effective. We've also had communion seated in groups at round tables where eat person shared the meaning of communion for them ... and we used large hunks of unleavened bread, so it was more than just a pinch, along with 8 oz cups of juice rather than thimble-sized cups. It took a lot of time, but we had many, many positive responses to it. God's blessing to you and your church!

My home congregation is a bilingual congregation. one of the few that i've seen that allows women to pass the trays. we try and schedule families to do this. there is something very special about seeing a loving christian family serving their brothers and sisters in this way...when i say families, i do mean husband, wife, and children. we also have women that lead our congregation in thoughts and prayers during the Lords supper. it is something special to see a 15 year old girl pray her heart out in spanish while our 80 year old elder is by her side to pray in english. I know this is a touchy subject and we are very careful to not offend visitors. thats what i love about my church family. if we know that someone is visiting ahead of time and that they might feel uncomfortable with the womens role, we will not schedule any female for that day and our women understand the reason why. we do not want to offend anyone by having them think that "this is the way we do it, if you don't like it, ...sorry." we are here to edify each other. thanks for the question!

Carlos, the first full-service I had planned at the Manhattan Church. The people for the first assembly that were reading the scripture weren't there and I didn't realize til we got to that and then I realized no one was there to serve communion. Somehow the public transportation wasn't being friendly to me or my planned service.

So, a family from the 5th row saw my confusion and trouble and the mom, dad and 2 sisters gladly stood up together and walked to serve communion to the church.

I was VERY thankful for their servant hearts and how they rescued me when they sensed mass confusion after I had finished the song and said "now we're going to share in the Lord's supper to remember the ultimate sacrifice and the joy of salvation found in the body of Christ."

I love that story! Serving because the need is there...imagine if all our members could be like that? what an impact it would be for all! Thanks for sharing!

Just FYI, at my home congregation, we've decided that there's no real good reason to keep our women from serving in any capacity in our assemblies -- except for preaching. (Though if a sister had something to say that needed to be heard, we'd find a way for her to say it!)

We also decided that there's no real good reason to exclude our men from sharing in the "service group" activities, such as setting up potlucks, cleaning up afterward, providing meals, and doing the baptismal laundry. The service ministry leaders have asked that we share these duties as families, so our kids learn to share these responsibilities -- and the associated blessings of being servants in all ways!

Passing the trays being off limits for women has always baffled me. Oddly enough it's about the only thing women haven't done here....yet. This is one of the best examples of how ridiculous the 3-part hermeneutic of "direct command, example and necessary inference" can be. It's also a testimony to the fact that we don't even begin to use 1st century example as a basis for what we do in our assemblies, even the most traditional and conservative among us.

Keith, sometimes stirring the pot is the only way you can break down the lumps of sin and stupidity that need to be dissolved in the broth of the blood of Christ. I have no idea where that soup metaphor came from.

Gary,

You probably knew the whole time I was thinking "why is Quail Springs letting women serve the church communion?" It baffled me as well but you are right... CENI is weird and quirky. It's a nice logical process, but it isn't how the first century thought- contrary to what some "righteous" ministers seem to continuously tell me when I tell them they have a personal bias reading scripture, which they also deny- of course! they're the ones who are able to read the New Testament in it's perfection-

Maybe we should name them Apostle's of the church.

> Why is it okay for a woman to serve communion east and west,
> but not north and south?

Pardon my feigned arrogance, but...
Okay? Who said it was okay? I don't think it's okay at all!

Really, it's a position of service, not anything to do with leadership. Why in the world would we limit the amount of anyone's service, especially if they are wanting to serve?

At my church here in Dayton, women are allowed to serve the communion elements in all directions... quite literally. We don't pass trays so much as gathering in small groups around a tray (and the server), and all partake together. Gives the communion much more of a community feel, which our leadership believes brings our communion service closer in tune with the Jesus' intent of the communion, as well as the practice of the early church. This really works well for us, as we hardly ever have more than 180 people in attendance, and the space in our auditorium is conducive to such an arrangement. I imagine it would be more difficult in much larger churches, or in cramped auditoriums. Sometimes I think our "modern" church settings are not at all in line with the intentions of the early church.