for the church

50/50

There must be a balance. It's not that our practices or focus should change. To me the biggest obstacle to overcome are assumptions.

I get frustrated at my own church because many times someone on the stage will speak of someone in the audience (by name) as though everyone in the room knows them, or make reference to a story (joke, testimony etc...) without any background. Those who have been there may know but if someone from outside of that regular body is there (believer or seeker) they can feel lost or left out.

I've also been in many congregations where a worship leader or a minister will lead into an element or a passage from the Bible without any explanation as to why or what it is about. This assumption that everyone knows what is going on can lead those who don't to be confused, or again, feeling like a stranger in a strange land.

And sometimes using the basics in our "language" can go a long way. An outsider may relate more to simple phrases like references to "the Bible" rather than "scripture." As believers, we may think is silly or elementary, but that's usually because we were raised in church. Some phrases and expressions that are common to us may be foreign language to a person that has never been in that environment.
We should not change the depth of the message or music etc...but I think we do need to constantly measure ourselves in the things that we say. Is our language "religious" and foreign to someone not accustomed to our words? Do we make references out of assumption that could leave anyone visiting in the dark?

If we are going to call our churches families, then we need to be sure that our "family" is inviting and makes others feel at home.

Jon,

Thanks for sharing your insights. I appreciate your view of sensitivity to seekers. I remember in the 90's (that was the last century, right?) hearing for the first time, comments around the contribution that were sensitive to visitors - "if you are visiting today, don't feel obligated to give - this is something our members do to support the ministry of the Lord's work." I never heard things like that when I was growing up, but it seems to be more common now. Your comment made me think of what a difference that one little twist in something for the church (giving) with a sensitivity to visitors, can help create a friendlier atmosphere. Some studies show that "asking for money" is near the top of the list of reasons why people don't like church. Yes, it is a mind set of trying to think of the perspective of others - especially the first time visitors.

You also mention the importance of our talk (sometimes in "code") and using church terms that the average unbeliever would not understand. I agree, we should be more sensitive.

From a different perspective in the entertainment world and with performing groups on stage, I was always told that the singers should not have "private jokes" among themselves on stage - they should always include the audience with what is going on. It's more an attitude of "inclusiveness" as opposed to cliquishness.

This is an interesting question. Let me give my response with regards to my church at this time:
More for outreach

Normally I wouldn't answer at all that way, when considering the ideal situation. In what I consider the ideal situation, individual church members, small group meetings, and local missions events would take care of all the outreach. The worship assembly would be just simply what that term implies: A group of Christians gathering to worship the Father and support each other, and gain encouragement through that experience.

However, my congregation is in a situation where we must grow in order to survive. Simply maintaining status quo leads to the death/falling apart of the congregation, although it may take a few years to finally kick the bucket. Therefore, since we must grow, I believe we must gear our service more to outreach and evangelism than to our body. Now of course, there still must be time for family matters, and we make that time. But we focus more on evangelism and outreach in our assemblies.

Jonathan,

In a similar way, I'm am saddened to see churches that are losing their young people, refusing to change, and thus, dying a slow death. It doesn't have to be that way, but we do need to be open to adapting methods while remaining true to the timeless message.

Thanks for sharing!

(Sorry for my LONG posts, but Keith you're really asking questions that are on my mind lately and pressuring my heart and emotions)

I believe AT LEAST one gathering per week should be "for the church." Not exclusive to the church, but for the purpose of the church coming together to worship, edify, learn, educate, serve, share in table fellowship, etc.

The more and more Sunday mornings are geared for "non-Christians" scares me. I worry we will lose the purpose of our time together. Our time together is to be Christ-focused first, people focused second.

When we decide our assemblies are about reaching out, then immediatley we run into problems- like Keith listened to. How are we going to change so we don't lose people? And like the poll a couple weeks ago or so, we start asking questions as to how we connect with people- It really all says "We're self seeking."

I am here to admit that I'm self-seeking and each day I regret it and change small things more and more. It's just a scary place to be when you aren't self-seeking. The worst thing are these people who are like "well I'm only doing this for some security" or they make some radical comment in their sermon or class and then say "well you need common sense so you don't get killed."

My comment back: well- Jesus obviously didn't have common sense, He let people committ him under false pretense, a lie, and he didn't even put up a fight for justice. Makes me wonder a little about our reactions to life!

Anyway- our assemblies should be Christo centric and we should strive to place the worship, praise and adoration of God from the people on earth as the ULTIMATE experience on Sunday morning. Second comes the rest, which is ok, but it MUST come second.

Andrew,

It concerns me when I hear of evangelistic seeker services that become "Christianity Lite," which do not provide deep spiritual nourishment for believers - when, that becomes the ONLY service they attend on a regular basis.

While I appreciate the freedom that Scriptures give us in the content of our assemblies, I simply can't shake 1 Cor. 14, which says over and over that everything must be done for the edification of the church. So I like to think that we are culturally aware and even relevant, but my choice is to focus on equipping the believers.
When we do, I think that unbelievers are likely even to fall down and exclaim, "God is among you!"

I had a neat and very encouraging email just today in this regard. An unbelieving Jewish high school girl attended a very Christ-centered concert this weekend. She has been to many Sunday school classes, and has been unconvinced, but in the concert she found herself singing along with words she didn't even believe, and told her believing host family the next day, "I found myself asking God what I should believe about Jesus. I think I want to believe He is God."

It confirmed to me that when we worship without compromise, and it is clear Who we worship, Jesus does His best work of calling people to Himself.

Ken,

For the most part, Christians don't realize how true worship CAN be evangelistic, almost unintentionally. If we truly edify the church and are totally committed to genuine worship, no doubt, evangelism will be a by-product. Thanks for sharing about the concert impact.

50/50

I think that fellowship among believers strengthens our spiritual lives aswell as gives us energy and motivation to evangelize effectively.
However, I also think that reaching the lost is one of the most important missions Christ gave us, and we should try to win as many for Him as possible.

It's all for Christ!

50/50...My home congregation is made up of both mixed families and familes whose relatives are not believers. Because of that we have to be aware of them so we try and have a balanced service. I believe that one of the biggest problems in the church is that we are treating nonchristians as christians. Chrstians love and accept the nonchristians when they visit and they are won over by our love and they easily feel comfortable with us and visit on a regular basis. Then when it comes time to sit down and really study about their salvation, they are confused and assume that they already are christians. So a distinction between believers and nonbelievers has to be made...this is the real challenge..how to do it in a way where visitors know they are welcomed, comfortable and loved but also so that the believers do not get a "watered down" worship to their God. Remember, He is the real audience not visitors or even us.

50/50

I feel that Sunday morning services can serve both of these purposes. It is important for these services to encourage the church family!! For alot of Christians, although this is sad, it is the only time they will spend time in worship for the entire week!! If these services were 100% devoted to catering to the visitors and the "un-churched" then the family would not have that time of encouragement and growth.

However, I do feel that we have to create a welcoming environment as well. The person that commented on just the language that we use is great. Don't use "big" words that a non-Christian would not understand. And also don't deliver a message about deep theological topics that would go over 90% of the church's heads!! I feel that Madison does a great job at doing this in an effective way!! But this also leads to the fact that the church family needs to be involved in a good ol' Sunday school classes. These are, or should be, designed to go "deeper" and to educate on a different level than on Sunday mornings.

I believe we should step lightly when we discuss this issue. Not to be the downer, but it seems through scripture the "worship services" of the early church were just for Christians only. But remember they did not have "worship services" like we do.

At the same time, they were together all the time. We have changed in many ways since then. We boil our worship down to a couple hours for the week on Sunday mornings. We use our fellowshipping time to fill our mouths with food instead of encouraging one another with daily, spiritual food.

Worship was a focus on God not really each other. I know our worship today involves each other, but maybe we have lost the emphasis of worship.

Sometimes putting the emphasis on ourselves or others (visitors) can take away the God-factor of our praise and adoration.
Most of their teaching was coming from their outreach methods. I wonder if their small groups were their strength? Just a thought.

I believe we can find a balance in our worship by explaining each part of worship to those visiting as we walk through them. Example: instead of just taking a collection, telling why and informing the visitors, they are not obligated to contribute.

We can achieve a balance as long as God is our focus.

OK, I am done, Sorry to be so long.

Ah, "balance" is a good word. But the best phrase is "God is our focus."

Thanks for sharing.

Keith,

Great subject! I am not real sure if my answer lies within your choices. I think the Sunday morning service should be geared towards teaching and building up believers more than evangelistic in nature. However, it should not ignore those in attendance who are unfamiliar with the traditions and "code language" of worship. We take a few minutes as a congregation each Sunday to pray for the lost in our community. While I like the concept, I wonder how it makes those in attendance feel who are not Christians. Do they feel like we are talking about them or condemming them? I think an old fashioned "turn or burn" type service will scare away more than it will save.
I think a well planned worshp service with the right mix of singing and teaching that leads seekers to the throne of grace is ideal. That type of service also serves to remind Christians about their own need for grace. I think we all need to be reminded regularly that the grace of God is the only thing that saves us.
So I guess my rambling answer would be...more for the church, but barely.

You raised some good questions, Keith. I remember hearing so many older saints declaring that sermons were not appropriate unless they were about the "first principles." I've also heard my share of "turn or burn" sermons.

I have to qualify my answer to this poll by saying a couple of things. First of all, anytime we are going to dedicate an assembly to Worship God then the most important audience is GOD. After giving our worship to Him, the first byproduct will naturally be edification of the church. Since we are the body of Christ, it stands to reason that we will receive the most direct benefits from joining our hearts together with Him in worship.

Still, our "spiritual service of worship" is to be a "living sacrifice" before the Lord. It would seem to me that the Lord's "good, pleasing, and perfect will" is for us to bring people into His kingdom and not be a stumbling-block to them. One of the true detriments of Christianity happens when God's people develop a language and culture that does not have the needs of the lost in mind. This can happen in worship assemblies when "insider" language is used (phrases that only "church" people would understand), when there are "assumptions" of biblical knowledge in the assembly, and when there is a lack of sensitivity of the presence and needs of the unbeliever due to a subtle "spiritual cliquishness." (By the way, this "church culture" phenomenon can also be displayed in the way a church spends money, when the majority of the planning of church events are "brotherhood-centered", etc.)

Just because believers gain the most when an assembly is planned to be Christ-centered doesn't mean that assemblies shouldn't be planned with a deep sensitivity to helping the non-Christian or the "non-initiated" connect with God. Just because those who plan assemblies choose to intentionally use language, symbols, media, versions of the Bible, etc. that communicate to the hearts of the "least initiated" doesn't mean that church members are being neglected. My experience tells me that such assemblies are often more rewarding and challenging, even to the spiritually mature, because they are more intentionally sensitive to EVERYONE who is present.

Deeper bible study and spiritual challenge doesn't have to be neglected due to this kind of worship planning. There are many other hours in the week when the church can gather for biblical instruction and accountability. Sunday Bible classes, small groups, and special challenge events can give us great opportunities for deeper biblical encounters. However, could it be that one of the reasons why some don't want to "water down" the worship assemblies is because they don't want to give up some of their other time?

I'm not trying to be mean here. I'm concerned that the motivation for some to have a "deeper" worship assembly is partly the result of a desire to "compact" our gathering times due to our break-neck schedules. I worry that we want our assemblies to take care of "our" (the church's) spiritual needs because we don't have more time to give so that "our" spiritual needs can be met outside of the assemblies.

I'm convinced that prayerful creativity can lead us to develop new and effective opportunities to reach all spiritual goals. May the Lord help us to trust His leading, to be sensitive to the lost, and to be creative in our planning on multiple levels so that His will be done in our churches.

You really summed that up nicely. Thanks!

Wyane,

Perhaps we are trying to accomplish too much in one time-constrained slot that we allow within our "break-neck" schedules. Yes, we need prayerful creativity to make sure that in our lives, Jesus is Lord "of all."

Which leads to another question - can we truly meet our spiritual needs with ONE service per week (when it seems obvious the early disciples met throughout the week and in homes)?

Maybe I'm getting really cynical and pessimistic about this... But in one line: We can't.

Certainly not within my allotted time of one hour per week to really feed the people (because less than half go to Sunday school, and even fewer on Wednesdays). Modern church culture has redefined the Christian lifestyle away from what the early church was... and arguably we are much worse for it. You simply cannot gain the deep knowledge necessary to know God, and have encouragement and relationships that sustain us throughout an entire week, on just one hour.

More now than ever, I'd argue, we need to be in the presence of our fellow believers every day, keeping track of each other, encouraging and edifying, learning and sharing, in order for us to stay true to our God and learn the deep truths about Him and His ways. There's too many distractions for us not to help each other keep our focus straight every day.

Until church culture moves back to that central necessity, I fear that our worship assemblies will continue to feel "watered down" and the Church will not be the highly effective force in the world that it should be. I'd even venture that it will continue to be very difficult for most congregations to convert new people and grow... one primary reasion is we keep teaching that being a Christian is a complete lifestyle, even though it most obviously is not in today's world.

I would lean to “more for the church”. Maybe instead of “Seeker” services, I would lean toward “Seeker Friendly” services. Seeker friendly services are powerful when you have a body of believers that are also living life as a Christ follower. The Seeker Friendly service can and does compliment what Christians are doing to reach others daily in their lives, but should never be seen as the exclusive way we try and reach our world. The “Go” of the great commission, more literally the “as you go”, must never take a back seat to our gatherings. Evangelism today happens most often in the context first of “relationships”, and is often supplemented and encouraged by “community”. What adds power to our assemblies are lives lived daily as “salt” and “light” to the world we are trying to reach.

Well stated Lee!

Look up the word "encourage" in the New Testament and you will find it mentioned many times in association with the saint’s time together. More than anything else, our time together should be designed to encourage those who already know Christ. Evangelism, on the other hand, is a personal thing. When people see our good works, they will give God the praise and glorify Him for it. The seeker naturally wants to be a part of this encouraging community that shows its love for one-another. It is our love for one-another that should set us apart and show others that we are God’s children.

Congregations whose individuals love and support one-another grow over a long period of time. People are assimilated easily into this kind of local church. On the other hand, congregations who are mostly evangelical based may baptize a lot of folks, but they may not grow over a long period of time because they are not used to assimilating the recently converted. People are not fooled for very long. They want to be loved and encouraged also. If they don’t receive it in the congregation where they are converted, they will either leave the church entirely because they become discouraged or they will seek again the love they crave, and they will seek it elsewhere.

However, we can’t become like the church in Corinth and have a disjointed assembly that newcomers can’t understand. We should never be so proud of what God has given us that we would not want to share it with everyone we meet. It is in that sharing of God’s grace and love that should draw others to us, His church.

Therefore, I think our assembly time should be designed for the maturation of the believers first, but always with open arms to the outsiders.

Your message, James, reminds me of the evangelistic movement of the 1970's. There was such an emphasis on numbers, we witnessed churches that saw people going out the back door as quickly as they came in the front.

So many good comments and so many things to consider when prayerfully crafting a church's corporate worship response to God. Thanks!

Our approach at Eastside has been to assume it is the church who gathers to worship each Sunday, but that we will be hosting invited guests at our family gathering who may not be familiar with some or most of what we do and say. So, we try to make things easier for them. Because most of us are "insiders," we sometimes ask folks (usually guests who have become part of the family) what we did and said that was helpful and what barriers we put in their way as they journeyed with us. Their comments have been helpful.

One other thought. Last year I heard Leonard Sweet talk about how some who are seeking are sometimes attracted instead of repelled by the mystery of insider language, etc. He said that insider language and ritual sometimes add to the richness and texture of a guest's experience (or something like that). He did advocate helping people to understand the rituals and lingo, but not necessarily doing away with all of it... especially for younger people. His model was Starbucks, who now has so many combinations and so much insider language that they've published a guide so you can know how to navigate their menu and participate fully in the Starbucks experience. Rather than making coffee simple and generic, they've made it complex and specialized... yet they continue to attract new customers, many who didn't even drink coffee before but who want to be part of the Starbucks experience (even if they would not say it that way). Well, enough about that... like I said... just a thought.

simple and generic versus complex and specialized ... food for thought. (This reminded me that I gave up StarBucks months ago).

What are some ideas on how we can get helpful feedback from our visitors on a regular basis?

It occurs to me that I never answer these things directly and that I never use numbers to express my thoughts. Sorry, I'm mathematically challenged.

My take on this questions reflects my church family's identity as a relatively new reincarnation of a church of Christ congregation that is more that 100 years old. Only about 6% of us know anything about who we were 10 years ago - much less 25, 50, 75 or 100 years ago. We are a melting pot of baptists, catholics, Lutherans, methodists, pentacostals and a few Stone-Campbell movement descendants. A congregation that carries its culture intact through successive generations would probably take more guidance and influence from its past than we do.

Our family's culture resembles a church plant in many respects. The church plant mentality leads us to ask "what do we want to accomplish in the overall function of this family?" Our Sunday morning worship direction is intended to integrate the entire experience from 10:00 to 11:30 into a topically-driven dialogue among the family and between God and the family. Whether that dialogue is family oriented or outreach oriented depends on the topic of the day, quarter or season.

Most of our outreach function extends from our small groups. I am more likely to invite a guest to my home for Sunday evening than to our family's worship facility on Sunday morning. It is difficult for me to conceive of corporate worship that is intentionally planned to draw people into the kingdom. I'm sure God will add to his Kingdom through worship, but my unfamiliarity with it as a strategy leads me to focus on relationship building in the community to reach out instead of attracting people to the Kingdom through worship.

Do the words that I am typing seem arrogant? Please forgive me if my words communicate that way. Focusing worship on either outreach or the family seems strange to me. Again, please forgive me if this seems arrogant or cliche, but I just want to focus on God. I guess I trust him to sort out the rest. Nonetheless, you may look at what we do and perceive that our focus is more horizontal than vertical. I just hope that my eye remains trained on God more than on my brother, sister or neighbor while I am worshiping God-.

Jeff,

I know you and you don't come across arrogant. I wish we could learn more about how small groups can be used for outreach.

Yes, God should be our focus. Thanks again for sharing, Brother.

Blake, Carlos, Phillip, Jon and others,

I almost didn't offer 50/50 as an option on this poll. I really expected feelings to be strongly leaning one direction or another.

Great comments!

I'll have to say more for the church - but while limiting things that would be not at all understood by visitors.